Ulduar 25 Meta - Anyone Interested?

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Tziva
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Wed, 10 Nov 2010 08:17 -0800

Unless I can find some sort of solution or working idea on how to deal with the healing issue on Yogg, we may just have to skip him tonight. I appologise to everyone who came in hopes they'd get an awesome Ironbound -- trust me, no one wants that mount more than me -- but I think at this point, the fight is unbeatable with the bug. We've spent over five hours on Yogg (in contrast, Firefighter took under three hours) and although we have obviously gotten better and made progress, we never recovered from our horrible phase 1 to phase 2 transition, and everything snowballs from there. If Yogg really is healing between brain phases, as well, that would explain why the brain room is never able to get the brain down far enough to trigger phase 3. I must concede that if we were going to beat him, we probably would have done it by now. It's horribly disapointing and I feel like I've let everyone down, especially considering how hard everyone has worked, but I think it's true.

My best solution is wait until 85, hope the drakes stay in that long, and go back and bunch it in the face then.

I will do as much research as I can today on my breaks and at lunch to see if I can find any solutions or at least solid ideas to try on Yogg. If I come up empty handed, my plan for tonight is to work on Algalon so people can at least get a badass title to make up for their lack of protodrake. Please watch a video or read a strategy guide if you've not done him before.
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Tziva
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Wed, 10 Nov 2010 09:45 -0800

Speaking with a lot of people that have done Yogg since 4.0.1 and seen the healing bug, this bug shouldn't be anything more than a minor inconvenience.

The issue is us, not the bug.

We'll give it a few more tries tonight with some minor changeups. I want to go back to our original method without the ferrying. The time it takes to ferry adds back and forth is going to drag out the explosions more by adding time to phase 1. That's part of why it's taking way too long. Her health ticks up approximately every 10 seconds, so the faster we can blow her up the less she'll heal. Every second wasted ferrying is setting us behind. I'd like to intentionally trigger one cloud at the start and just burn them down on top of her as hard as we can. We'll have both Lithmir and Han tanking, with Lith holding them and Han picking up the spawns and bringing them to the middle.

We're going to flip Elanthii to elemental but still make him help heal the DPS inside the brain room. Chis will go in as DPS instead of Therin, and we'll leave Therin up top to help with Crushers.

I'm going to readjust the portal teams a bit. Everyone is saying that we should be able to get the tentacles inside the brain down fast enough to have close to 50 seconds on the brain, instead of the 25 we're getting. (if anyone has a parse but hasn't put up to WoL, that would be helpful for me to see DPS)
Last edited by Tziva on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 10:14 -0800, edited 1 time in total.
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Wed, 10 Nov 2010 10:06 -0800

Modified portal team.
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Tziva
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Wed, 10 Nov 2010 11:05 -0800

Using these three charts that Zartuck found, we will assign specific people tentacles in the brain room. Please know your assignment.

Wyrmrest room
Shadowvault room
Stormwind room

#1 - Tziva
#2 - Zartuck
#3 - Ed
#4 - Silphia
#5 - Atarna
#6 - Therin
#7 - Chisbo
#8 - Paladiac

Elanthii and Failure will help out as needed, where needed, as well as cover any brain room people who didn't make it inside. They get a little bit of a pass since Elanthii will need to be spot healing and Failure dispeling.

The entire team is responsible for making sure all the tentacles go down and go down as fast as possible; if you get yours down quick and someone else's still has half health, help them out.
Last edited by Tziva on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 09:37 -0800, edited 2 times in total.
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Hanstall
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Wed, 10 Nov 2010 12:00 -0800

Tziva wrote:The issue is us, not the bug.
This is true, of course, but kind of beside the point. We are trying to do a super hard fight which over 1/2 the raid has never killed in its easiest 25 player mode without spending the 40+ hours of work it took most raids to learn back in the day. We are hoping this works like it did on the other achievements on the basis of 2 tiers of extra gear alone. So of course, if we were a raid that knew the fight well as a team and now had 2 tiers of extra gear, the fight wouldn't be a problem. However, for us the bug makes the fight harder in exactly the way our inexperienced raid can't handle.
We'll give it a few more tries tonight with some minor changeups. I want to go back to our original method without the ferrying. The time it takes to ferry adds back and forth is going to drag out the explosions more by adding time to phase 1. That's part of why it's taking way too long. Her health ticks up approximately every 10 seconds, so the faster we can blow her up the less she'll heal. Every second wasted ferrying is setting us behind. I'd like to intentionally trigger one cloud at the start and just burn them down on top of her as hard as we can. We'll have both Lithmir and Han tanking, with Lith holding them and Han picking up the spawns and bringing them to the middle.
I'm happy to try not ferrying but I think your misunderstanding the problem. Ferrying gets explosions happening at exactly the same rate as the other method. There is just a small delay at the start (when she's at full health anyway) before the first explosion. Once we start they are exploding at the rate the things are spawning. We usually even have her at like 2% after the 8 explosions that are supposed to kill her. Then typically the 9th one explodes her to 0%, but she bugs and does not flip because she's casting. By the time she's done casting she's healed again back to 2% and you are repeating the same problem: explode and hopes she flips this time. Exploding multiples at once does not help since we are already getting her to 0%. The extra 1-2 explosions we need mean we have had 3+ more adds spawn, which sets us back at the start of phase 2 but on several times last night we had recovered from that by the first portal phase. The main advantage to not ferrying is that we get 1 more good DPS (Chis). In any case, if we wipe on touches like we did almost every time we tried the middle this is kind of a moot point.
I'm going to readjust the portal teams a bit. Everyone is saying that we should be able to get the tentacles inside the brain down fast enough to have close to 50 seconds on the brain, instead of the 25 we're getting. (if anyone has a parse but hasn't put up to WoL, that would be helpful for me to see DPS)
This would be huge. If you get into brain room that fast it would trivialize the job outside because nothing spawns and everything is frozen outside for as long as you are in there. Not knowing the brain room I'm not sure how realistic it is to do this and unfortunately only 3 of our brain room people have a lot of 25 man brain room experience. Any other tweaks pale in comparison to fixing this.

I think your possible ways forward are:

1. Amp up the brain room team so you kill in 2 portal phases. Not sure how realistic this is since you were a long way off, but it would solve every other problem.

2. Pull all your ranged DPS out of the brain room and put them outside except 1 Hunter. Melee DPS on the outside are largely decorative as they can't hit the most important targets and the crushers are dying painfully slowly. This lowers the entire raid's DPS. This should allow us to last at least 3 brain phases, which is the maximum you can really tolerate for the enrage timer anyway. This is a lot of readjustment we probably don't have time for though.
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Tziva
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Wed, 10 Nov 2010 12:35 -0800

This is true, of course, but kind of beside the point. We are trying to do a super hard fight which over 1/2 the raid has never killed in its easiest 25 player mode without spending the 40+ hours of work it took most raids to learn back in the day. We are hoping this works like it did on the other achievements on the basis of 2 tiers of extra gear alone. So of course, if we were a raid that knew the fight well as a team and now had 2 tiers of extra gear, the fight wouldn't be a problem. However, for us the bug makes the fight harder in exactly the way our inexperienced raid can't handle.
Our raid is not that inexperienced. The half figure it probably accurate for 25man (although the half that has has done it down one keeper), but if you count ten man too, we have a lot more experience among us with the fight. Probably most of the raid has killed Yogg on 10 and a lot of us have have done One Light there. The difference between 25man and 10 is the difficulty, but the mechanics are identical.

We're not doing anything blatantly wrong and no one is misunderstanding the mechanics. We just need to clean up what we're doing.
I'm happy to try not ferrying but I think your misunderstanding the problem. Ferrying gets explosions happening at exactly the same rate as the other method. There is just a small delay at the start (when she's at full health anyway) before the first explosion. Once we start they are exploding at the rate the things are spawning. We usually even have her at like 2% after the 8 explosions that are supposed to kill her. Then typically the 9th one explodes her to 0%, but she bugs and does not flip because she's casting. By the time she's done casting she's healed again back to 2% and you are repeating the same problem: explode and hopes she flips this time. Exploding multiples at once does not help since we are already getting her to 0%. The extra 1-2 explosions we need mean we have had 3+ more adds spawn, which sets us back at the start of phase 2 but on several times last night we had recovered from that by the first portal phase.
She regains health approximately every 10 seconds. The faster explode adds on her, the less healing she will do. If we are burning down the adds fast enough, we will be able to intentionally spawn more faster than the come naturally and flip her in far less time. We just have to make sure that final add does not explode while she's casting. It also gives us one more high DPSer which is not insignificant since the success of this fight hinges on everything dying fast enough.

The idea is to explode at least one intentionally right at the start (potentially two) and burn the other ones down fast enough that we can safely spawn a very extra to allow the transition to end sooner. All the advice from people has been to burn them down right on top of her for One Light or Alone.

Ferrying them wastes time both in their travel time, because we're stopping DPS to not explode them early, and because we still consistantly explode a few early when they're not on it to hit her. It might make things cleaner but I really think it's making things harder to handle with her healing.
In any case, if we wipe on touches like we did almost every time we tried the middle this is kind of a moot point.
It's not. We aren't having cloud touches any less often doing it the ferrying way. On average we are having one or two bonus ones every attempt with this method. If we're in the middle, it will be a lot easier to handle the bonus cloud touches anyway. We can handle a couple extra cloud touches, we have been the whole time. Some attempts in the middle were worse, but some were better. We've also had a lot more experience with the fight since we were in the middle, and people might have improved.

I suspect what was really making us overrun with adds was the same thing doing it now: her not dying fast enough. We had several attempts doing it in the middle where the first accidental cloud touch was after we had already successfully exploded nine guardians on her, when it normally would have been a flip. Our melee can learn to dodge clouds. We have control over that. We don't have control over her healing. And if they can't, we can just flip her that much quicker.
This would be huge. If you get into brain room that fast it would trivialize the job outside because nothing spawns and everything is frozen outside for as long as you are in there. Not knowing the brain room I'm not sure how realistic it is to do this and unfortunately only 3 of our brain room people have a lot of 25 man brain room experience. Any other tweaks pale in comparison to fixing this....1. Amp up the brain room team so you kill in 2 portal phases. Not sure how realistic this is since you were a long way off, but it would solve every other problem.
First, to clarify: You say only three of our brain room people have 25man experience but the raid sizeis irrelevant since the brain in 10man is identical to 25man. Everyone in the brain room has done Yogg's brain before.

Two brain phases is supposed to be doable on 25man with overgearing, and it's been the goal all along, we just haven't been meeting it because we've always either been down people from the terrible transition or something else gone wrong.

Unfortunately we are just not getting the tentacles down fast enough. I've given specific assignments for who does what tentacle in hopes that helps. We're also gaining two DPS with Chis as DPS and Elanthii has Elemental. Elanthii will still be spot healing on the tentacle part, but he'll contribute significant DPS to the brain.

I'm hoping these changes allow us to get more on track with the brain.
2. Pull all your ranged DPS out of the brain room and put them outside except 1 Hunter. Melee DPS on the outside are largely decorative as they can't hit the most important targets and the crushers are dying painfully slowly. This lowers the entire raid's DPS. This should allow us to last at least 3 brain phases, which is the maximum you can really tolerate for the enrage timer anyway. This is a lot of readjustment we probably don't have time for though.
Unfortunately I am limited on who I can send into the brain. We can't afford to pull all of the ranged out of the brain because we don't have that many melee with experience (even less if we make Chisbo tank) and we have some people who are 'tentatives' (I'm planning based on the people I know will be there). So I put in all the experienced melee plus a moonkin (starfall is super OP on tentacles), at least one hunter, and then our most bursty ranged. We should only have two melee up top at maximum, and once of them will be backup on the portals if anyone dies... andI may end up swapping Atarna and Therin around; I'm experimenting. The ranged in there I picked based on their high DPS and burst damage. I took Nehe out (something I should have done last night) because as Affliction, she is weaker in the brain and should rock up top.

I think if we can figure out how to get the brain down in two portal phases, it will solve the issue of up top being behind. The problem up there is a symptom of the brain room, so gimping the brain room by putting lower DPS or inexperienced people in there just to maximise the amount of people on crushers will probably make the problem worse not better.
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Wed, 10 Nov 2010 05:30 -0800

Looking at recent uploads to World of Logs even the very top raids doing 1 Light got 12+ Guardian spawns with 9-10 before she flips. We were regularly getting 13 when we don't mess up ferrying with 10 explosions before she flips. (We got to Phase 2 ferrying last night on 10 out of 12 attempts.) When in the center last week, the two times we didn't wipe due to touches we also got her to flip in 10 guardian explosions.

Bottom line: Either will work and give virtually identical results if done correctly but don't expect any notable difference in guardians spawned.

Note: Most attempts with all in the center we lost melee due to all melee getting killed by explosions rather than just 1 tank. Each Guardian explodes all the melee for 20-25k. If a Guardian happens to Shadow Volley near the same time, people die. In addition to dodging clouds we have to be much better about interrupting volleys if we are all eating the explosions.
I think if we can figure out how to get the brain down in two portal phases, it will solve the issue of up top being behind. The problem up there is a symptom of the brain room, so gimping the brain room by putting lower DPS or inexperienced people in there just to maximise the amount of people on crushers will probably make the problem worse not better.
This is the nub of the issue. If the brain room can't improve their DPS time a lot we are sunk. If they can we'll get to Phase 3 cleanly.

FWIW, Diminished Power (20% raid wide DPS debuff cast by Crushers) was up for 20% of the total time fighting Yogg last night. I'd really roughly guess we spent about 1/2 of the time in Phase 2 so that means the raid was suffering a 20% or more DPS loss 40% of the time due to the Crushers. I understand there are not a ton of good options at this point since its very hard to retrain melee DPS to go in the brain room and we have the people we have. I'm just pointing out its liability we have to live with that we are losing 1/2 our ranged DPS to the brain room.
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Wed, 10 Nov 2010 07:03 -0800

I think one thing that would help get way more time on the brain would be for someone to call out for the portal team to get in portal positions a few seconds before they spawn. I did this early moving on my own a couple times from watching DBM timers and I was in the room ready to kill junk the second that the portal was up. This also would help alleviate some of the bitch-stole-my-portal type confusion going on if everyone is at their spot before the portals are around.

I also remember that we had someone calling out early portal warnings back when we were learning in Pie and I think it did help.

Also, just in case we don't happen to kill Yogg tonight, the drakes are confirmed to be staying in the game through at least 4.0.3. It might be worth it to try again after this patch just to see if the healing bug has been fixed (I'm guessing that this bug only came about after 4.0.1 and might be made better or worse with another patch).

Blue post about mounts/pets/coolstuff being taken out of the game (and confirmations about some stuff that's staying in like these proto's): http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 0112&sid=1
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Wed, 10 Nov 2010 07:13 -0800

Sure, I'll try to do that, good idea
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Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:37 -0800

I put up the calendar for one more week. I think we are very close. However, if we don't get it, this definitely WILL be the final week; the week after is Thanksgiving and then the business of December holidays. I will try to arrange something again some months into Cataclysm if it doesn't happen.
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Tue, 16 Nov 2010 08:57 -0800

Okay, this was kinda bizarre, and hopefully it was just a weird fluke, but I want to check to be safe... some people aren't getting on the calendar or invited like they should. So if you wanted to come this week but for whatever reason didn't get the calendar invite, please let me know. Two people mentioned to me that they didn't get the invites for this week, even though I copied the calendar from prior weeks. It was probably just a bug or accident of some variety but I am paranoid now.

Second, we only have 18 accepted on the calendar tonight and a lot of no-answers. Unfortunately, we currently only have one tank (Chisbo) so I'm not sure how it'll go. We may end up cancelling, but I'll give it my best go to put something together. Remember, this is our last week of trying until Cataclysm.

If a kill does not happen, I will try to arrange a one-last-hurrah run into Ulduar at 85 if people are still interested. The only downside of that will be that we will have to reclear the prior bosses then because lock outs don't survive major patches to keep extending which is annoying.
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Sun, 12 Dec 2010 09:46 -0800

I put up new calendar entries for this on the first week of January (Tues/Weds). Everyone who attended last time gets priority. Having a lot of us at 85 or close will help a lot. If you know anyone who wants to go, let me know. Everyone else, please respond to your calendar.

We will need to reclear since we lost our lockout in 4.0.3. We will do that AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. We will be skipping all optional bosses and most hardmodes* on the way to Yogg. I maybe even try to get a small group to clear some of the earlier bosses ahead of time for speed. The goal of this run is One Light, although I think most of us would like to do Algalon for the titles if there is leftover time.

* I expect we'll get Thorim's hardmode incidentally and we will be doing the General HM for Meagana who came with us for every fight but who unfortunately missed just that achievement. We may also do HM Freya since I expect that to not take anymore time than regular mode.
Last edited by Tziva on Sun, 12 Dec 2010 09:14 -0800, edited 1 time in total.
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Sun, 12 Dec 2010 03:51 -0800

I'd love to go on Ilye, though I'm not sure how far I'll have leveled her by then and I need to actually kill Razorface for that achievement as well as One Light.
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Tziva
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Sun, 12 Dec 2010 04:12 -0800

You don't need to kill Razorscale for the meta, and you don't need to be above 80 to go (that will just help). If you don't want to go, that's cool, but don't sit out if you do just because you won't be 85.
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Sun, 12 Dec 2010 06:55 -0800

This is great, thank you Tziva for sticking with your plans for this one.

~T~
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